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Aro/Ace Discourse™

assian-candor assian-candor

I wasn’t even going to do an Aro/Ace Discourse Post™ because it didn’t seem like my thoughts would be appreciated. But you know what? I’m annoyed!! I am pissed off!! Y’all have got me riled up!!

So the main issue seems to be whether or not aro/ace people are inherently LGBT+. I didn’t realise that needed to be An Entire Discourse, but y’know, it is. I guess.

To Preface: I’m on the ace spectrum, and I’m aromantic. I’m pansexual, and identify as non-binary (I go by they/them). I’m not a “cishet aro/ace”. I am very much an active member of the LGBT+ community.

And when it comes to whether or not aro/ace people are LGBT+? You know what? It doesn’t fucking matter!

If I, personally, had to give a yes/no answer, I’d say yes. I believe that the LGBT+ community is for people who deviate from being cisgender/heterosexual/heteroromantic. Heterosexual attraction is defined as sexual attraction towards people of the opposite sex, and ace people do not experience this. Heteroromantic attraction is defined as romantic attraction towards people of the opposite sex, and aro people do not experience this. Therefore they deviate from being “het”. I don’t think “cishet aro/aces” exist because being aro/ace means you are, by default, not het. Therefore I’d say they’re LGBT+. But again, you know what? Who fucking cares!

Ace/aro people do experience acephobia and arophobia. No, it’s not as frequent or as overt as forms of oppression like homophobia or transphobia, but oppression isn’t a competition and these things do still happen. Being told “Maybe you just haven’t met the right person yet!” is just as distressing for ace/aro people as it is for, as an example, a gay man being told he just hasn’t met the right woman yet. An ace/aro person being expected to get with someone sexually or romantically by default is going to make them feel “othered” and alienated. One of my closest friends was called a frigid dyke for being on the ace spectrum. This kind of shit happens, whether they’re LGBT+ or not.

And guess what! That’s not okay! I know ace/aro people who feel suicidal because of how people have responded when they’ve mentioned it to people. When I’ve told people that I’m aromantic, I’ve been told that I’m insensitive and lack emotion. (When I’ve mentioned it to people who think I’m cis and heterosexual, they’ve called me a misogynist/sexist, because they assume I’m going to treat women with little/no respect because I’m not in love with them.)

And, as an active member of the LGBT+ community, I want to combat these things. And yes, I would still think this if I wasn’t LGBT+, but I definitely feel like my queer identity shapes and influences what I think about ace/aro people. And if an ace/aro person comes to me, and says that people are treating them as less because they’re ace/aro, I will lend them an ear, and I will provide a safe space for them if I can. And, as a queer person, many of the safe spaces I’m aware of, and which I have access to, are specifically LGBT+ safe spaces. Many of y’all fucks act like ace/aro people shouldn’t be allowed into these sort of spaces if they’re “cishet aro/aces”. But yeah, fuck that.

TL;DR: I don’t give a single solitary fuck if aro/ace people are inherently LGBT+. If they need a safe space, I will gladly and enthusiastically welcome them into LGBT+ exclusive safe spaces, because I’m not a fucking reprobate. As a queer person on the ace spectrum, I am fully imploring other members of the LGBT+ community to stop fucking gatekeeping the goddamn community like this. This isn’t what we’re about.

assian-candor assian-candor

@hufflepqff

To answer these in reverse order:

1. Apologies for the q-slur mistake. I’m privileged enough that I almost never have it used against me and so I often forget it’s bothersome to some people. I’ve edited it to LGBT+ exclusive. Sorry for the error.

2. This is where the difference lies. The way you, as a member of the community I presume, seem to define LGBT+ as it relates to attraction (i.e., the sexuality spectrum, not the gender identity spectrum) is that anyone who is attracted to the same sex/gender is LGBT+. I, on the other hand, also as a member of the community, define LGBT+ as anyone who is not attracted (at least not solely attracted) to the “opposite” sex/gender. And, in that respect, I’d argue that aro/ace people are LGBT+ on the grounds that they don’t experience these “opposite”-sex attractions.

But, again, that’s not what the post is about. I stated twice in the post that whether or not ace/aro people are inherently LGBT+ is not the point. My point is that, LGBT+ or not, ace/aro people are still victimised on account of their sexual and/or romantic attraction, or lack thereof. When asexual people get responses along the lines of “what, like plants?” that’s no more, and no less, problematic and damaging than when pan people get “what, so you fuck kitchenware?” Not necessarily vindictive or aggressive, usually said whimsically, but upsetting and irksome. A very common response (speaking from experience) to people coming out as asexual is comments like “Are you sure you haven’t found the right person?” or “I can change that ;)”, both of which invalidate asexuality as an identity, and perpetuate rape culture. The same applies to aromanticism, in many respects – I speak from personal experience when I say this. Like I said before, these things do happen, and people do get attacked for being ace/aro. And again, this happens whether or not we define them as LGBT+.

My point isn’t “here’s reasons why they’re LGBT+! Everyone who disagrees is wrong!” because I know there’s always going to be multiple, conflicting arguments regarding this. My point is that, as a member of the LGBT+ community, I will welcome aro/ace people into our community and our safe spaces if need be. And I think that prohibiting ace/aro people from our community because they’re not qualified enough on account of not being genderqueer or sexually attracted to the same sex/gender? That’s exactly the kind of gatekeeping the community should be combating. We could go on about this for hours, days, but ultimately, there isn’t really any way for anyone to adequately objectively define LGBT+. We can only define it subjectively, on a person-to-person basis, depending on how they see themselves and the community. My definition of LGBT+ is no more objectively correct or incorrect than yours. (Well, sometimes it’s wrong, like when furries and suchlike try to worm their way into the community. But when it’s something like aro/ace people, which is a lot more uncertain, I don’t think we can try to claim authority on how to be LGBT+ correctly.)

I see myself as having a job as a member of the LGBT+ community, and that job is to prevent people from being attacked/harassed on account of who they are and are not attracted to, and how they identify in terms of gender. And, since ace/aro people get attacked/harassed on account of who they are and are not attracted to, I see them as part of the group that it’s my job to look out for. Whether or not they are in our community, I see it as my job as a part of our community to look out for them.

Please do let me know if there’s anything I missed, or if I made any more terminology errors. (An example being, is it okay for me to use “genderqueer” as a lump term or just for myself? Again, I rarely encounter people who have issues with the word, so the ins and outs of the terminology are quite sketchy for me.)

thelastjediscourse thelastjediscourse

okay so i’m going to answer this on my discourse blog
the inherent issue with your logic about including ace people is that your reason basically boils down to “LGBT is the people who are deviant, abnormal, etc” which is really homophobic and transphobic. the LGBT community has, from its conception, been about combatting homophobia and transphobia. Ace and aro people don’t suffer from this, so why should they be included in the LGBT community?
Another thing that I noticed about your answer: you’re only talking about people’s microaggresions. The LGBT community wasn’t created because some people were kinda rude, it’s because people were literally dying. Gay people and trans people were being killed for being themselves and still are to this day. To my knowledge, this does not happen to ace people. Not to an extent that makes it actually significant, that’s for sure. The ace community does not benefit from the LGBT community, there’s no reason for them to be there and they’re better off creating their own community and safe space.

assian-candor assian-candor

I wouldn’t say that it’s about being deviant or abnormal. I can see why people think it’s about feeling “othered” and alienated, in the sense that we deviate from what’s considered “normal” by our society’s culture and norms (I say “our” meaning primarily Western society, such as the UK and the US). Society treats heterosexuality and heteroromanticism as the default. Society treats cis people as the default. And in that respect, LGBT+ people do deviate from that – not deviating from what is normal, but from what our culture has taught us is normal. And in this respect, ace/aro people fall under that, for the reasons I’ve stated. So in a respect, I can understand why that’s the image of the community that many people have, despite it being wrong. As you said, thinking that LGBT+ people are deviant and abnormal is all sorts of fucked up, and causes more oppression and violent behaviour.

But that’s not really what the LGBT+ community is, it’s more what people outside of the community see it as. That’s why non-LGBT+ people such as furries, people who treat their kinks as sexualities, and paedophiles (the three primary examples I’ve seen trying to push their way into the community) think they deserve a place in the community – because they think it’s a collection of weird, quirky, abnormal people who are gonna accept them with open arms. So yes, the idea that the LGBT+ community is about strangeness and quirkiness is damaging. But it’s one thing to say “Yeah, I’m weird! I’m quirky! I’m proud of being abnormal!” It’s another thing entirely to take pride in feeling comfortable with an identity that deviates from the identity your peers and society think you should have. And I think ace/aro people are just as entitled to express that pride as LGBT+ people are, whether it’s part of our community or not.

But again, ace/aro people do face oppression. And again, oppression isn’t a contest. Saying that we shouldn’t include ace/aro people on account of the fact that they primarily only face microaggressions is very much a ‘some people have it worse than you do’ attitude, which is…flawed. It’s one of the reasons why lots of people, LGBT+ and otherwise, feel uncomfortable coming forward and speaking out about their negative experiences. The aggressions we combat as a community include microaggressions. If institutionalised homophobia were eradicated, if homophobia in education and employment were eradicated, and gay men began to only face microaggressions, we wouldn’t dream of saying “Well, the big ones have been dealt with, now we can stop looking after them!” and pushing gay people out of the community. We need to realise that microaggressions are just as severe as macroaggressions, and hold them to the same standard when working on preventing them. Just because aro/ace people “only” face microaggressions is no reason to keep them out of the community.

Even if ace/aro people aren’t inherently LGBT+, there’s no reason we can’t use our position within the community to aid them. We have a somewhat structured, culturally influential groundwork to deal with these kinds of issues, and I think we should use that foundation to help people who face microaggressions, even if they’re not life-threatening, even if you don’t consider them to be significant. This is what I mean when I say that it doesn’t matter if they’re LGBT+ or not. I’m not trying to convince you that they are. I’m just trying to say that the LGBT+ community has the ability to help them, to help combat the microaggressions you refer to, and to make life easier for them. I firmly believe that communities should help one another. The LGBT+ community should support the ace/aro community and give it a platform from which to be heard, and vice versa (albeit to a far lesser extent, since the LGBT+ community already has support and a platform). I’m not saying they’re LGBT+. I’m just saying they deserve support from our community, and that the gatekeeping should stop.

thelastjediscourse thelastjediscourse

no, but the LGBT community was literally founded because we were being murdered and we were dyingz. that’s why it exists. because the hate against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people was so terrible that we had to rally together to protect ourselves. ace people do not suffer from this. their issues are not the same. they do not belong in a space that was created for people being persecuted. it is not the responsibility of the LGBT community to help ace people, because we have our own problems that are, arguably, way more important. the thing is, the LGBT community is for combatting homophobia and transphobia. not aphobia. the struggles of ace people and LGBT people barely intersect. But you know where ace people can fit? In the feminism movement. Proving that you don’t need sex to have a good relationship, that sex isn’t for everyone, that not everyone wants it. So instead of shoehorning themselves into a community that they really don’t belong in, ace people can join a movement that really will help them.
Yeah, ace people only face microaggresions. That’s why they don’t belong in the LGBT community. Because the LGBT community’s suffering is so, so, much more than that. It’s about so much more than that.

assian-candor assian-candor

Again, you keep saying “They don’t belong in the LGBT community.” and that they don’t belong in LGBT+ spaces. I’m not saying they should be in our spaces. I’m not saying they should be considered inherently LGBT+. I’m saying that, if they need a safe space, I will provide them with one. And if that safe space happens to be an LGBT+ safe space (since, like I said, most safe spaces I have access to are LGBT+ safe spaces), I won’t change my mind just because some members of the community may come after them with pitchforks and torches on account of, as you put it, shoehorning their way into the community. I’m not saying it’s a space for them to exist as an LGBT+ person. I’m saying it’s an LGBT+ space for them to exist as a person with the support of the community.

Plus, you talk about feminism. Feminism, at its core, used to be about women. At the time of its creation, it was specifically about women getting rights in terms of marriage, parenting, and property rights. If anyone had tried to say “Hey, men should be in the community too!”, they would’ve been shot down. But now, that’s not what feminism is! Now feminism – egalitarian, intersectional feminism, at least – is about the fundamental equality of every sex and gender in all areas of life. It’s about fighting for women, yes, since women still have it worst, but it also works on improving things which are bad for men and gender nonconforming people. (An example is men not being taken seriously when they’re sexually assaulted, which is a feminist issue.) Men don’t face nearly as many issues as women and gender nonconforming people do. And they only really face microaggressions! No one’s attacking them for being men, no one is killing them for being men, the main issues they face are people being rude to them sometimes, and people not taking them seriously when serious things happen to them. Just like what you say about ace/aro people. But feminism still fights for men! Despite being rooted in a cause created solely for women, the movement adapted, and evolved, and now includes other people too, even though the issues those other people face may not be “as bad” or “as important” as women’s! And that’s because that’s a good thing to do!

You say “we have our own problems”, and that’s true, but it also…doesn’t mean anything. The community is large and diverse enough that we can focus our efforts and our energy on more than one problem at a time. We have the time and the resources to combat macro- and microaggressions. Saying we can’t fight ace/arophobia at the same time is ludicrous, because that’s like saying “Yeah, we already have the time and resources to fight for gay men, lesbians, bisexual/biromantic people, pansexual/panromantic people, transgender and nonconforming people, and intersex people, but ace/aro people would just be a bit too much.” And again, I’m not saying we should say “Here, be a part of our community!” I’m just saying we should use the resources we have, which they as a community do not have, to help them out a bit. It’s not even difficult, but so many LGBT+ people are unwilling, and it’s troublesome.

As a member of the LGBT+ community, I should feel comfortable bringing non-LGBT+ people into my safe spaces. It’s a space where I should be allowed to bring whoever I want, so long as I know they’re not going to cause disruption or be of any trouble to other LGBT+ people. I deserve to be able to bring ace/aro people into my safe spaces, not as an LGBT+ person but as a person in need of a safe space, and not have other members of the community chase them out with a stick for not “fitting in” with the rest of us. If a person is being ridiculed or attacked for being aro/ace, and they need a safe space, they deserve one. And I have active and resourceful safe spaces which I am able, and willing, to bring them into. Because if someone needs a safe space of any description, and the ones I have access to are a last resort, not letting them in on account of “only” being aro/ace is a disgusting thing to do.

feministingforchange

This is a very good post OP, but as a cis panromantic demisexual, can I also just point out that “inherently LGBT” isn’t even an actual thing, as I explained in this post.

Also, @tuxedo-cut-man & @masterd1mwitt showed in this post how the exclusionist construction of the “cishet ace/aro” folk devil is wrong on a number of levels. Also please follow these 4 links for more info on ace/aro specs and exclusionary politics.

And if anyone actually cares to hear about being aspec from ACTUAL aspecs, follow my tumblr-based aspec education campaign using the hashtags: #BoostAceVoices, #BoostAroVoices, & #AspecsOfColor (the last of which came about on its own bc I see so much hate & erasure happening particularly towards aspecs of colour, but i now realize it should be a part of my grander education campaign - many apologies to aspecs of colour about my brain fart :/)

So, together, I think the evidence makes a fairly strong case for at least providing help to aspecs if we ask for it (regardless of whether you think we belong), if not completely accepting us into the LGBT.

The thing is, we are never going to all agree on everything, but we should at least be respectful of each other's’ needs & differences.

#BoostAceVoices #BoostAroVoices

ace discourse feminism my thoughts and stuff BoostAceVoices BoostAroVoices aspecsofcolor actually panromantic demisexual caps exclusionary tactics moral panic folk devils bold ask to tag i may have missed stuff :/ sex mention tw i'm white loud text ableist slurs tw ableism tw long post receipts